Breakfast With David Yonggi Cho And Rick
Warren:
David Yonggi Cho is pastor of the largest Protestant church
in the world (Yoido Full Gospel Church in Seoul, South Korea
- 750,000 members). It is a church known for its prayer ministry
and for its use of Cell Groups to embrace new members and to
develop lay leaders. Cho started the church as a plant over 30
years ago.
Rick Warren is pastor of Saddleback Valley Community Church
in Lake Forest, California. Warren, through his Purpose Driven
Ministries, has mentored over 100,000 congregations worldwide.
Recently, they both met in Southern California for a brief
breakfast, and we recorded their conversation for you:
Warren: How do you stay fresh in the ministry?
Cho: When I first started my church in 1968, I would spend five
hours every day praying - a kind of a spiritual warfare! In America
you don't see much of the spiritual warfare, but in the Orient
you can see the temples, and you must really fight if you want
to be in a location because there will rise up opposition. So
I really depended upon prayer.
The place where I went to plant my church - there were already
shrines, and the priests from the shrines tried to intimidate
me. They tried to burn up the tent churches. So to combat this,
I spent five hours every day praying. But now a days I usually
spend three hours every day praying, and if I don't keep praying
regularly in such a way then I can't maintain the fellowship
with the Holy Spirit. I believe ministers cannot maintain their
ministries without the anointing of the Holy Spirit. For me,
that means three hours a day to maintain my intimacy with the
Holy Spirit.
Warren: What would you like to say to American Pastors?
Cho: Well, American pastors -- they have wonderful facilities
and also higher education but usually American pastors can't
pray more than 15 minutes -- so that is main trouble. I have
always said you have everything -- finance, facilities, education
-- but what you're lacking is the determination to pray (things)
through. No prayer power!
Many people still do not know the real importance of prayer -
but as a minister, you should know that prayer is the foundation
of church growth and revival. American pastors should be determined
to pray. As you know, we have an early Morning Prayer meeting
in Korea and many American pastors come. They asked me, "How
do you motivate people to come in the early morning to pray?",
and I say, First, you should motivate yourself!
Warren: What about the process of helping people grow in Christ?
What is the process your church uses for moving a non-believer
to maturity in Christ?
Cho: We have this kind of organization: When people first get
converted, we ask them to the School of Conversion. They are
taught for six weeks and given all of the materials. Then they're
introduced to the Cell System in their area, and they are trained
through the Cell Leaders.
Warren: How have you used technology to care for the needs of
everyone in such a large church - to give personal attention
when you have so many thousands of people?
Cho: We couldn't handle the situation without computers. We computerized
everything in the church - every facet! We also make use of the
Internet. Right now we are offering an Internet church where
people participate in services through the Internet. I want to
take people to the Internet.
Korea is very small - not like in America with a lot of space,
so we can't enlarge our church buildings. Besides, every year
we have 20,000 new converts in our churches, and we can't put
them all in our church building or even our branch churches.
So now we have an Internet church and many of the young generation
participate in the services at home. They send in their offerings
on the Internet. They can do on-line giving.
Warren: How many of your house churches or cell groups use
the Internet and watch your Internet services?
Cho: Most of all the house churches are using the Internet service
now.
Warren: Is it done at a certain time and they just click to see
it? Is it a live service?
Cho: (Right now) It's a live service, including Sunday and Wednesday.
But also, when I want to give special instructions or teaching
for the cell groups, then I will teach it through the Internet
to the cells and apartments. This way I can give a special word
or special instruction to the ministers and the cell leaders
in that area.
Warren: It seems that the Internet cell group has far more potential
for growth even more than Branch (satellite) churches?
Cho: THAT IS IT EXACTLY! - I always say to our people - this
is the next generation ministry! Without the Internet we will
fall far behind the wall. Many (in the) young generation won't
come to church because of traffic and a lack of spaces in church.
But now we have an Internet broadcasting system with a fantastic
program to attract them, and they can stay home.
I say to the young people - don't come to church - just stay
home and get your teaching through the Internet. And they also
give us feedback about sermons and services.
Warren: Saddleback now has a service on the Internet, and
we've also connected our small groups through GroupNet so they
can change their cell group roster on the Internet, share prayer
requests, etc.
Cho: I think that in a big country like America you would not
be interested in that kind of thing. But we are so jammed that
we have no way to keep growing except by going to the cyberspace!
Warren: Well, no matter how much land you have it eventually
fills up. We have 120 acres and in the first 20 years my goal
was to bring them in to our campus. But now, in the next 20 years,
our goal is to Decentralize -- to send them out.
Cho: I have been following your ministry very closely for long
time so I know everything that you are doing and mostly I've
been very much impressed and amazed that you have built up this
big church without having building costs - that is very amazing
to us!
Warren: We wanted to prove to the world that you don't have to
have a building to grow a church. We were running over 10,000
in attendance before we built our first building. So we know
how to grow and minister without buildings. But what we are trying
to learn now is how to do it through Internet into the homes.
Cho: This is it exactly! The next generation IS the Internet!
Use the Internet - it is better!
Warren: Even if we had all the buildings we needed, one question
is whether or not the next generation wants to worship in huge
buildings!
Cho: We need both ministries together - a strong young church
and a very powerful Internet service. I can make contact with
you from Korea via the Internet, reaching you anywhere in the
world. There are many American-Koreans participating through
our church's ministry on the Internet . Through the Internet
we can have worldwide fellowship and worldwide services!
Warren: You are already the largest church in the world with
750,000 members. So what is your vision for the next stage of
your church?
Cho: It is exactly the Internet service! It is silly to build
larger and larger church buildings. It is silly to spend more
money on (branch church) buildings! You'll never have enough.
I really believe this, and I have already announced to my people
and ministers that the next step is to go into total cyberspace
ministry because it is a real waste of money to build a larger
buildings.
Warren: Just think of that money and how you could be using it
for missions!
Cho: We have now already sent 500 missionaries around the world.
An amazing thing is that two years ago, I was invited to have
a meeting in Dubai. The Islamic police came and said - 'If you
ever move out of the British Embassy area, you will be arrested.'
But we had about 3,000 Islamics come to the meeting every evening
and many Saudi Arabian kids. I said - 'How did you know that
I was having meetings? They said, "Through your Internet!"
They said, "In Saudi Arabia we have no church - we can't
own a Bible, but we can still read the Internet. We are watching
your Internet service and you announced that you were coming
to Dubai, so we took our vacations and came out!"
Now we are offering services through the Internet in Saudi
Arabia - and worldwide in cyberspace - and no government can
stop you! So that is the way to go!
Warren: What advice would you give to a brand new minister?
Cho: Number one - I would encourage him to have a very positive
attitude in the ministry because he will meet many discouragements.
Second, he should have visions and dreams because visions and
dreams are the vessels through which God works - These visions
and dreams come from the word of God to you - and so it is very
important to have visions and dreams.
Third, I would just want to tell him to really listen to the
voice of the Holy Spirit -- very important -- very courageous.
Because to start a successful ministry, one needs an adventurous
spirit. God always enjoys such a person. That's the kind of person
God uses.
Warren: I've read your books on Vision and Dreams - speak
to pastors about how you hear the voice of the Holy Spirit?
Cho: The Holy Spirit always speaks through Bible Study. Even
this morning, I was studying the Bible and praying before the
Lord. You know we have a lot of head knowledge but very little
bit of the heart knowledge. Many pastors try to speak to their
people using the head knowledge instead of the heart knowledge.
So to receive heart knowledge, we must pray very much and then
study the Bible and wait upon the Lord. Many people in prayer
-- they are only talking to God in one way - but they should
wait upon the Lord until God really soaks into their hearts.
When I wait upon the Lord, His will comes like dew upon my heart.
Finally, I see the drop of the water on the leaves - the Spirit
comes like dew on my heart and influences my decision. So through
that I receive guidance from the Lord. So waiting upon the Lord
is very important. Many people think that it is a waste of time
to wait upon the Lord - but it is not so if one waits upon the
Lord, then the Spirit of the Lord comes and speaks quietly.
Warren: How have you raised up so many leaders in your church?
Cho: It is a main work to motivate the people. Through my experience,
I have found that only 10% of the whole congregation will be
motivated to work. So I would ask my Seniors to look for only
an available person whom the Holy Spirit is already beginning
to develop as a Cell Leader or as a Senior Cell Leader. So we
are all looking for people in every section of our ministry -
always looking - and I ask my Seniors to pick up those people.
Warren: What do you look for? What do you tell them to look for?
Cho: Naturally, those people who are available, and learn very
much by themselves, and who are very much concerned about the
lost souls; a heart for evangelism. Then those people are candidates
for Cell Leaders.
Warren: Of the people that come to Christ in you church - do
most of them come to Christ through the worship service and then
move into the Cell?
Cho: Mostly through the Cell. Many, many ministers have a misunderstanding
of the Cell Ministry. They think the Cell Ministry is a Fellowship
Group. I really train people to touch unbelieving neighbors.
Most unbelievers feel awkward coming to church. Some of them
are afraid of coming to church - especially a large church. So
when they are invited to their neighbors, they don't feel scared.
So - through the cell system - we invite neighbors.
Warren: Now that you are able to take your messages and other
teaching into the Cell Groups through the Internet - it seems
like the Cell Group Leader does not have to be as strong a teacher
as before?
Cho: No, I make him a strong teacher because if they depend upon
my message on the Internet, then they would never become a grown-up
minister.
You asked me a little while ago about any major mistakes in my
life. For a little while, I thought that I had made a great mistake
by supporting daily newspapers, the Christian daily newspapers.
We have over one million in circulation. But we have 11 pages
of the Gospel of the Jesus Christ inside the newspaper and almost
every journalist criticizes me, saying that I will pay because
I put the Gospel in the daily secular newspaper. For more than
10 years every month I spent 3 million dollars cash for the survival
of the newspaper.
And I really thought that I had a made a terrible mistake,
but later I found out that this newspaper was influencing our
government tremendously; most pastors speak from church pulpit
and society will not listen, but the paper became our pulpit
outside of church. It was read by congressmen, businesspeople
- they all read and listened.
Now we are almost making a break even (financially) and that
was my feeling of having made a mistake in my life. This is part
of my local mission. Now we are really happy because through
this newspaper we can really protect churches in an unbelieving
world.
Warren: A personal question - during the years when God put
that weakness on your life - when you were so weak -maybe 10
years?
Cho: I was raised up from my death bed from tuberculosis. Then
in 1968. when I started my ministry - even that time I was very
weak. Still I was having some T.B. fever, and I continued to
have heart trouble. Whenever my heart gave me trouble, then I
would lose strength, and I always thought that I was dying.
So many people asked me why do you pray for the healing always?
Even now I pray for the healing - because to survive in those
days I was preaching about divine healing -- to encourage myself.
I couldn't continue my ministry. I encouraged myself by preaching,
that's how I kept going.
Then in 1964 I fell, and the doctor told me to leave the ministry.
He said, "With your condition of nerve and heart, you will
never survive." So I really prayed to the Lord and said
to the Lord, "This is my calling - if I leave my ministry,
then I don't need to live. God would not answer me so particularly."
Bit-by-bit -- more than 10 years -- God would put me in the thorny
life. After 10 years, God slowly began to touch me and heal me.
So that was a great trial me in my life.
Warren: But in that time what encouraged you?
Cho: In 1964, when I was almost total infected, I had the choice
of one of two steps - to delegate my ministry to lay Christians
or keep up the ministry. But when I tried to delegate my ministry
to the men, they would all make excuses saying that they were
too busy, or not trained, or "You receive a salary not me."
So I had to use women.
In Korean society - for long periods of time -- women had no
power or voice in the church, and I began to use women. This
was a big risk - but I had no choice - it was a step out in faith,
and I had no alternative. Then the women made a tremendous contribution
to church growth! Now all the Korean churches - even Catholic
-- have accepted women. When I come to Europe and America encouraging
pastors to use women, I always receive a lot of opposition -
especially in Europe.
Warren: Do you think American churches should be more open
to the prayer for miracles?
Cho: I feel that the most American churches really don't believe
in the miracles of God. The church is getting very institutionalized.
But I tell you that by a new anointing the American church would
start to believe the miracle of the nation of God's hand.
I think there are a great many devout that could be used today.
Secondly, I want to stress the importance of the use of women.
Women are underused in the church. We use them on telephone -
they talk constantly - they love to talk on the phone. Put Jesus
in their mouth to talk!
So women are a tremendous strength in church because of culture
- but in Western culture - you are afraid of using women. But
once women were given the freedom to work as fellow leaders there
was an explosion of Cell Leaders.
Warren: Can you please pray a prayer of blessing to the pastors
that are reading this?
Cho: Heavenly Father, we thank you for many wonderful pastors
and lay Christians in America. America is a strong foundation
of Christianity through which the whole world received great
blessings and benefits. We are now praying many, very rich blessings
be upon each and every American pastor and Christian -- so that
God may once again use America to send missionaries to the end
of the world and to change the world for Jesus Christ. In Jesus
Name I pray …
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