Date: 5/26/03 12:01:04 PM Pacific Daylight Time
From: rock.salt@verizon.net (Rock Salt Publishing)
To: R421@aol.com

Dear Cephas Ministry,

Here is Part II of the Church Growth Movement. I wrote the following letter and response to the pastor of Jacksonville Chapel in New Jersey who at one time was one of the most Biblically conservative churches in New Jersey when I discovered that they had joined the Willowcreek Association and were holding interviews for an employment position for someone who would direct their Rick Warren inspired and authored SHAPE Program, which is based on the teaching of Carl Jung.

Final comment. I see two clear and present dangers to the Church today which threaten its very survival:

1) The Trojan Horse of Psychology,
2) Final Solution (What the Church does with Israel)

Blessings,
James Sundquist
***

CHURCH GROWTH MOVEMENT, PART II

CARL JUNG'S INFLUENCE ON THE CHURCH
By James Sundquist

Expose on Rick Warren's SHAPE Profiling and Gifts of the Holy Spirit:

Here is the what SHAPE acronymn stands for:

* Spiritual gifts - God-given abilities to do kingdom work

* Heart - Areas of passion or burden in your life

* Abilities - Skills you have developed or acquired

* Personality - Your natural bent

* Experiences - Both good and bad

I can't find one single Scripture to support a non-believer taking a SHAPE test or any test like it to find their personality profile or gift(s) of the Holy Spirit, as it is impossible for a non-Christian to possess ANY Spiritual Gift of the Holy Spirit. (Churches would argue that SHAPE Program is administered only to believers, but the fact that a non-believer could take the gifts test and obtain a score should prove that the test is not Biblical. And besides this, the Personality test is already administered to non-believers.)

I can't find one single Scripture that says finding our gift was EVER a problem for the Church.

I can't find one single Scripture that instructs us how to find our gift.

I can't find any historical account that finding our gift was a problem for the Church.

I can't find any historical account that finding our gift was a problem for Church Fathers.

Anything we do in Christ is not through our strengths, but is perfected in weakness.

I can't find one single Scripture which uses a subjective balance of weighing our strengths and weaknesses to determine our Gift(s) of the Holy Spirit.

I can't find one single Scripture that uses personality or personality theory to determine our course in Christ or in the Church.

I can't find one single Scripture that instructs us to come up with a numerical value or rating system for the gifts of the Holy Spirit.

I can't find one single Scripture that instructs us to use what even the proponents of profiling concede is imperfect tools to calibrate or calculate, or determine a perfect gift(s) of the Holy Spirit. But I can find a Scripture that confirms that a gift of the Holy Spirit arrive ALREADY perfect: "Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning." James 1:17

Where in the Scripture does it say to practice your gift in the Holy Spirit in order to develop it as SHAPE tells us?

Where in the Scripture does it say as SHAPE states: "Although there may be some pitfalls along the way" in developing or determining your gift of the Holy Spirit." The acquiring or determining of the gifts of the Holy Spirit do not have any pitfalls. Jesus Christ is the author and finisher of our Salvation and he who as begun a good work in me will complete to the day of perfection...and he does this completely without a SHAPE profiling test cunningly devised by man!

Where does it say in Scripture:

"My experiences have influenced my interest in the following people to determine my gift in the Holy Spirit" (SHAPE). My experience might have nothing to do with how God directs me after becoming Born Again, or even what gift of the Holy Spirit I might acquire!

SHAPE states: "Determining your Heart is not easy for everyone."

Why do we need to determine our heart when the Bible already tells what our heart is and that is wicked and deceitful above all things? Who can know it the Bible says? Only the Holy Spirit and it alone that can reveal (determine) our heart, as it alone is sharper than a two-edged sword, dividing soul from spirit.

SHAPE states: "People that know you well may be able to shed some light for you as well." and "As we said, the best way to discover your Spiritual Gifts is through other people, by testing, and by exercising your gifts."

Like Job's friends....they were useless!! The Holy Spirit will tell your friends the gift of the Holy Spirit you have before he tells you?

SHAPE states: "1. Using the results of the Spiritual Gifts Assessment questionnaire on the following pages, list your top three Spiritual Gifts:"

We are going to depend on a man-made and invented questionnaire what our top three gifts are, whose roots came from Carl Jung? And who decided it should be 3? Maybe it is one, who does the ranking, and what Scripture ranks our spiritual gifts?

SHAPE states: "Describe any experiences that have confirmed these Spiritual Gifts:"

Why does experience confirm our Spiritual gifts? This word occurs 12 times in this test. Why are spiritual gifts tested by our subjective experience rather than testing the spirits against the objective Word of God? Are we to use our fallen and flawed memories to determine our perfect spiritual gift? Are we to dig up "repressed (and very possibly imaginary) memories" from our unbiblical Freudian invention of the nonexistent subconscious? And these results are supposed to be authoritative in addition to or above and beyond God's Word?

SHAPE states: "Using the response sheet below, write your response to each statement in the block whose number corresponds to that number statement in the Spiritual Gift Assessment. Add the numbers in each column and write in the block marked "T." Assess your gifts matching the letter at the bottom of the row with the Spiritual Gift Assessment Key."

Assess your gifts matching the letter at the bottom of the row with the Spiritual Gift Assessment Key.....say what? Did all those Christians for 2000 years have this assessment key? We determine our gift of the Holy Spirit by adding up a score? This sounds more like numerology prohibited and condemned in the Bible than it sounds like Scriptural Authority!

SHAPE states:

"Spiritual Gift Assessment Key:

A = Administration

B = Apostleship

C = Craftsmanship*

D = Creative Communication*

E = Discernment

F = Encouragement

G = Evangelism

H = Faith

I = Giving

J = Helps

K = Hospitality*

L = Intercession*

M = Knowledge

N = Leadership*

O = Mercy

P = Prophecy

Q = Shepherding

R = Teaching

S = Wisdom

(Note: Healing, Speaking and interpreting Tongues, Miracles are not included in the Spiritual Gift Assessment because their presence tends to be self-evident.)"

So you took it upon yourself to determine the non self-evident gifts? Since when does the Bible make this distinction in the first place?

Sound good?? Only one problem. They have added five gifts of the Holy Spirit (See the asterisks * above) that are not even listed in the Bible ( examples: Craftsmanship and Creative Communication)....so much for the Scriptures which forbid adding unto the Scriptures). Then they left off "serving". What does the Scripture say about taking away or removing any of the Scriptures? Rev. 22:19 states: "And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and [from] the things which are written in this book."

Now let's look at the list the Scriptures record:

"For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another [divers] kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:" I Corinthians 12:8-10

"And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues." I Corinthians 12:28

(Those underling are additions to those mentioned in I Corinthians 12:8-10)

"Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, [let us prophesy] according to the proportion of faith; Or ministry, [let us wait] on [our] ministering: or he that teacheth, on teaching; Or he that exhorteth, on exhortation: he that giveth, [let him do it] with simplicity; he that ruleth, with diligence; he that sheweth mercy, with cheerfulness." Romans 12:6-8

(Those underling are additions to those mentioned in I Corinthians 12:8-10, and I Cor. 12:28)

"And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;" Ephesians 4:11

"For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:" Ephesians 4:12-13

So, doesn't "perfecting" mean perfecting? What is lacking in perfect? And doesn't "fulness" mean fullness? The Church possessed all of these tools for two thousand years WITHOUT any SHAPE test. So why does it need it now?

"Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform [it] until the day of Jesus Christ:" Philippians 1:6

"Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of [our] faith..." Hebrew 12:2

So, who is doing the work? So, the Lord began it, continued it and finished without SHAPE tests. And he performed this work for every saint that ever lived in the last two thousand years WITHOUT SHAPE!

Finally, Proverbs 3:5-6 should seal the doom of this SHAPE program or any clone of it.

"Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths."

***

One of the gifts listed by SHAPE is not even accurate. It is not the gift of discernment you receive, but the gift of discerning of spirits...big difference!!! So does SHAPE's list look like the Biblical list? Absolutely not!!!!!!!

This whole idea of using man-made devised tests and formulas is fuzzy math. It is another spin on Gnosticism (secret knowledge). It allegedly reveals information unavailable to the saints for two thousand years. Somehow the Lord has been faithful to all generations until the 20th Century, since no saint had access to any such test prior to the last Century. But what does Psalm 100:5 say? "For the LORD [is] good; his mercy [is] everlasting; and his truth [endureth] to all generations."

It says that JESUS CHRIST + PSYCHOLOGY = THE PERFECTING OF THE SAINT(S).

So the Church was deficient for 1900 years because it did not possess the secret knowledge and keys to your personality and diagnostic tool to determine your gift of the Holy Spirit? All of the martyred and persecuted saints throughout the ages had everything they needed to be fully equipped to do the work of the ministry, but they lacked one thing, they did not possess the ability to figure out what gift of the Holy Spirit they had? This whole idea is a reproach to every saint that ever lived and an insult to the sufficiency of Christ. The 21st Century Saints now have tools which were unavailable to the rest of the Body of Christ for the duration of the first twenty centuries? How did the first twenty centuries of the Church manage to get by without these tools? How could they possibly even know that they might be mistaken? Did they simply stumble into the truth of the right gift for them? How would even the 21st Century Church Christian know with certainty that the Personality Profile produced the right result, since it relies on fallen man, the old man, the old creation, perhaps even false memory syndrome, or a spirit guide they called Jesus? Imagine that the Christian used this flawed test, based on the fatal attraction of what's in it for me, or even for noble purposes such as the gift of healing, but then in fact, it was determined that it was a mistake? But by then you may have already given false hope to millions of victims such as the fraudulent faith healer Benny Hinn. Why didn't Paul say: "I am determined to know Jesus Christ among you, and him crucified, but also not only Christ crucified and him only, but you also need the world's tools too instead of saying:

"For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified."

I Corinthians 2:2

Why did Paul say:

"But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world" (Galatians 6:14 ), when he could have said "you should glory in the Lord Jesus Christ plus Psychology, since you need both to become whole, sanctified and perfect?" Or "There is so much good in the Greek pagan religions in all of the Greek speaking nations I started churches, that we must integrated the best of these religions into Christianity!" "Just think of how this will help the Church Growth Movement?"

"We must figure out a way to draw from the "science" of psychology and the philosophy of the world in order to complete the task of building the Church and identify the purpose for each Christian in order that he may be fully equipped to do the work of the ministry."

But what does Paul really say?

"O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane [and] vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called:" I Timothy 6:20

"Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ." Colossians 2:8

Paul didn't mean

"All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works." II Timothy 3:16-17.

He meant to say "almost perfect, "nearly furnished", and "many good works", because it is impossible to be perfect, thoroughly furnished and perform all good works WITHOUT a personality profile and without a gift diagnosis from at least one of the host of psychology contradictory programs available which combined with faith will produce the perfecting of the saint!

And Paul didn't mean what he said when he warns of fables and myths (why not integrate them into the Gospel?):

"As I besought thee to abide still at Ephesus, when I went into Macedonia, that thou mightest charge some that they teach no other doctrine, Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: [so do]." I Timothy 1:3-4

or

"For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away [their] ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables." I Timothy 4:3-4

And

The Apostle Peter had it all wrong too when he said:

"According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that [pertain] unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:" II Peter 1:3

For he meant to say: "most things...the rest you can pick up from psychology and Carl Jung's personality profile based SHAPE gift diagnosis."

Something else which stands out in Scripture as to how we find our gift. Note that the gifts of the Holy Spirit are ALL given by God's grace via the Holy Spirit. They are not ascertained by taking a man-made test any more than you could take a man-made test to see if you are born again or obtain a dream. The Lord distributes and informs each individual directly and according to his good pleasure "dividing to every man severally as he will." I Corinthians 12:11 (NOT AS WE WILL).

Countless saints have been martyred unnecessarily because of their Biblical stance of SOLA SCRIPTURA. Countless lives could have been saved had he simply said. Scripture is good as far as it goes....but we must keep the best of our traditions, and we must leave room for mankind to improve on and refine the Scriptures as Roman Catholicism would eventually do.

This false religion, particularly Rick Warren's SHAPE has turned the Church into Big Brother. So now we have BRAVE NEW CHURCH, run by profiling and transforming the Gifts of the Holy Spirit into a commodity which is integrated into a corporate management computerized dictatorship, whose records of each member will be already completely for the government and ultimately the One World Government. I have always imagined the prophetic fulfillment of a Brave New World. But in my wildest imagination, I would never have dreamed of a BRAVE NEW CHURCH. In my wildest imagination, I would never have believed that the government did not initially impose this system on the church, but the church itself gleefully created and implemented it, all on its own, and would do so in the Name of Jesus Christ with the help of the Holy Spirit!

SHAPE states: "You have now completed the S.H.A.P.E. Discovery Workshop. You have explored how God has SHAPE'd you for ministry through your spiritual gifts, heart, abilities, personality, and experience."

THIS IS VERY GOOD NEWS! IF I DON'T TAKE THIS TEST, I COULD NEVER HAVE FOUND MY "SHAPE" JUST BY PRAYING, HEARING GOD'S WORD BEING PREACHED, AND READING THE BIBLE?

SHAPE further states: "This summary page will help you capture the essence of what you learned and will help you toward the next step, a ministry mentoring consultation."

Does it have to be a ministry mentor (no Biblical precedent), or can it be an elder? What if the mentor knows nothing about SHAPE, can we seek counsel from someone else? Someone even outside of this local church? Ministry mentoring consultation? Where is the concept of term of "mentoring" in the Bible? I can find discipling, but not mentoring. Great, now I am more fully equipped to be a good blind guide leading a host more blind into the ditch! "Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch." Matthew 15:14

SHAPE states: "Which of the elements of experience do you feel were most influential in determining who you are:"

I don't know how many more umpteen times I am going hear the word "experience" as a major determining factor where we learn God's direction for our life, gleaned mainly from our own subjective, carnal, fallen, corrupted nature! Where have I heard that word "feel" before. This is wonderful....we get to trust our feelings for determining 'who we are'! (It occurs 13 times in the SHAPE profile test document. Since when do subjective feelings determine our spiritual gifts?)

SHAPE states: "List your Kiersey-Bates personality type from the test: ________ (E or I) ______ (S or N) ______ (T or F) ______ (J or P)"

It is very crucial that we used a personality type test which has absolutely no Biblical foundation or precedent and was mainly conceived by atheist and occultist Carl Jung to plug into the equation to find our out spiritual gift! I hope I don't get it wrong and find out I have the wrong gift and deceive myself as well as lead many others astray! Let see, am I a "T"? What was the Apostle Paul?

SHAPE states: "Give your scores for each letter: ______ E ______ I"

The Gifts of the Holy Spirit now have scores? Sounds like the results of a football game!

SHAPE states: "Discovering our unique S.H.A.P.E. helps us see more clearly how God is calling us to minister in His world."

And for those millions of saints that lived the last 2000 years who did not take this test saw less clearly how God was calling them to minister, including the millions of martyred and persecuted saints? This test which, by their own words, may not be reliable and might need improving, will help them see more clearly what the Bible by itself can not do?

SHAPE states: "Picture this scenario: You are putting together a 100,000 piece puzzle. The day comes when you are finally finished only to discover that one piece is missing!!!"

So, I did 99.99% of the puzzle by myself, and the rest of the Body of Christ comes together to help me figure out the .01%?

SHAPE states: "Although the puzzle is 99.99% complete, it will never look like the picture on the box. So it is with the Body of Christ. God needs each of us"

God needs us?

SHAPE states: "every part of us: "From him the whole body, joined and held together by every supporting ligament, grows and builds itself up in love, as each part does its work." (Eph. 4:16)"

As determined, defined and refined by the SHAPE test? If you are going to use this analogy, it is Christ who is the head in the body, so he is the one who does the thinking about completing the puzzle...and its 100% of the puzzle. The leg, the heart, the toe, the kidney does NOTHING to compute the design of the finished puzzle!

SHAPE states: "To discover your S.H.A.P.E. is to discover where God is calling you to do His work in the world."

And to NOT discover your SHAPE then is to NOT discover where God is calling you to do His work? How then did all of those Christians do it for 2,000 years? And how do you know with assurance that this even is His work? If the Lord does not build the house, the workers labor in vain!

SHAPE states: "Once you have discovered your S.H.A.P.E., God asks you to continue the development process what development process"

Under whose guidance? SHAPE mentors? There are more levels and courses we must take?

MORE QUESTIONS WHICH HAVE COME UP REGARDING SHAPE:

Question or Comment 1.

"My experience in the church is that most people do not know their spiritual gifts, have no clue as to how to discover them, and no interest in discovering them."

RESPONSE:

Gifts of the Holy Spirit are revealed and given directly to a believer from the Holy Spirit by his grace. They can be confirmed and affirmed by the Church, but they are not discovered by other men or by any man-made or pagan-based system or test. We are commanded by Paul to eagerly desire the spiritual gifts (this presumes that those eagerly desiring spiritual gifts are, indeed, Christians). Now you can also test the spirits to see if they be of God, as Satan is a great counterfeiter of gifts, but he is abysmal at producing the fruit of the spirit. Finally, you don't discover the gifts. In accordance with Scripture, they are either already given to you when you believe (one or more), or you can pray for one or more of them. "You have not because you ask not." But again, I repeat: You do not discover your gifts any more than you discover that you are born again, or had a dream. You just know by (1) The inner witness of the Holy Spirit, (2) The testing of the spirits, (3) The fruit of the Spirit, and (4) the Word of God.

As to having no interest in the gifts, according to God's Word it would be impossible for one to be a Christian and not have any interest in the gifts, because Paul commands us to seek them and use them for the building up and edification of the church. In fact, Paul's exhortation under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, inherently presumes that a true believer will, indeed, be given the desire for spiritual gifts by the Holy Spirit, himself. Paul's admonition is not to be (and should not be) confused with the man-made program of Church Growth...as in greater numbers but rather Paul is referring to the growth and maturity of each individual in Christ. If a professed Christian, a true believer, has no interest in the gifts, they are simply being disobedient to God's word. And besides this, they should not be interested in "discovering them." This would be a futile journey, or worse, divining.

Question or Comment 2.

"There is virtually no teaching on the subject."

RESPONSE:

Do you mean Scripture, or outside of Scripture? We are commanded in the Scripture to NOT go beyond what is written. There is some teaching on the gifts in the Bible, but there is absolutely no teaching in the Scripture on how to "discover your gift(s)." Anything there is to learn about the gift, is revealed within the gift itself at and by the direction of the Holy Spirit who indwells each and every true believer. There is not a single Scripture to support that practicing a gift improves it. You either have it or you don't. Did the original Apostles perform partial or imperfect miracles until they got them right? Besides "imperfect miracle" is an oxymoron.

Question or Comment 3.

"People minister in churches when it is pretty apparent they have no special abilities. Preachers preach with no preaching gift, teach with no teaching gift, often have no evangelism gift, modest administrative skills and no administrative gift, a dislike of leading and no gift of leadership, and often no one else in the fellowship seems to have those gifts either, or is willing to step forward and do those tasks believing they have those gifts."

RESPONSE:

It sounds like you are possibly mixing up gifts of the Holy Spirit with special abilities. A non-Christian can have the same special abilities as a Christian; in fact, oftentimes non-Christians will have MORE talents.

For example, the Scripture even says: "for the children of this world are in their generation wiser than the children of light." Luke 16:8. And if the children of the world have given heed to seducing spirits and/or are demon-possessed, they may even have supernatural powers that go beyond their special abilities!

Preaching is not a gift of the Holy Spirit, though it may be a talent. If they are performing these tasks without the gifting, they need to pray for the gift. If God does not give them the gift then I agree, they should serve the Church in another way, as there will always be some way to serve, and always at least one gift they will have as a Christian.

It seems conceivable to me that a person may not like to lead yet finds it necessary in the natural, since no one else has any capacity for governing. But it is inconceivable that a person would be given the gift of leading, then dislike it! One should not become an elder unless they desire to be a leader and shepherd, as the Scripture records. Secondly, such a teaching elder would have to meet all the other requirements of elders (as listed in the Scriptures) before he would even be Biblically entitled to become an elder or deacon. One can't decide he is going to lead God's people simply because he believes he has that gift. The gift must be tested and Scripture must be obeyed, "Lay hands suddenly on no man, neither be partaker of other men's sins: keep thyself pure." I Timothy 5:22

Question or Comment 4.

"Perhaps, the full range of gifts (your list from scripture) just do not exist in that particular fellowship."

RESPONSE:

The Lord will not leave his people without a witness, and there is NO church (or Scripture) in the New Testament that lends support to the idea that any particular body of believers will be left without the gifts of the Holy Spirit in operation. However, using your assumption that this may be the case, you still can't "invent" gifts or have "imaginary" gifts of the Holy Spirit, based upon a man-made temperament test being used simply to fulfill a perceived need. The Church could still function without the gifts of the Holy Spirit, for the test is not whether there is a gift present, but rather that Jesus Christ is present. "For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them." Matthew 18:20

Question or Comment 5.

"If the full range is not in a group it seems to contradict Romans 12 where I think it suggests that all the gifts will be present in the body. Can one suggest then, that such a group is not really a "body" and maybe shouldn't exist as separate church or group?"

RESPONSE:

To which "group" are you referring?? It is true that Romans 12, as do other passages describe the Church as a physical body, so that ALL are needed to work together, in that we can't dismember the body and have it still function. But the primary emphasis is the need for each person who is a Christian, not the gifts. This would seem to affirm that the Church can't function without the gifts of the Holy Spirit; however, nowhere in Scripture are we told that it is the gifts that make up the Body of Christ. Rather, the true church is made up of his people...the living stones...gathering together in worship, prayer, and the reading of the Scriptures, who comprise the body with Christ as the Head. Yes, Romans 12 does make it appear as though the Lord desires to see all of the gifts in operation within the Body of Christ. Yet, nowhere in the reading of Romans 12 are we told to limit the gifts to a particular building with four walls. For example, throughout the ages the gifts have been distributed over a large geographical region of many individual churches, ages, without them all being vested in one individual local congregation. Afterall, we are members of one body throughout the ages, not millions of bodies.

Question or Comment 6.


"Have you addressed the issue of what gifts have to be present in a group to allow it to function as a body? Maybe churches exist improperly because they are just too small and have insufficient gifts available."

RESPONSE:

Does this mean that our Lord has made a mistake in calling the saved, putting them together in a particular church? Furthermore, Paul's writings are clear, and his key word is "some." Some...not ALL...have been given particular gifts. If a body of believers is gathered together in the Name of Christ, and if there are no apparent gifts of the Holy Spirit in operation within that gathering, then it is up to that group to pray and seek the Lord that He, by His Holy Spirit, would (1) empower some within that group to receive the gifts that are needed, or (2) that He, by His Holy Spirit, would send others to that group with the gifts that are needed. Either way, there is certainly no place in Scripture where we are to take it upon ourselves to determine our gifts by the use of a man-made test, nor is a group of believers forbidden to gather in worship of the Lord if no gifts are in existence. The very act of gathering in the Name of the Lord is in obedience to God's Word, which can only come by the empowerment of the Holy Spirit indwelling each and every believer! And the very act of worship and praise is, indeed, a "gift" given to true believers by our Lord!

All that has to happen for the body to function is for two or more to be gathered in His Name. However, the gifts do enable the Church to be edified, to be built up in the faith, and to do more works in the Lord. But it is not as though the body is defective without the gifts. (If Christ is present, Who is perfect, the body can't be defective.)

Two or more gathered in His name can pray with NO gifts present or being manifested. Is this body of Christ functioning? Absolutely yes! In one case the container is full, and in the other it is pressed down and running over. There is not one single Scripture to support the contention that a church can not function properly because it is too small. Even if this were true, who decides the exact size necessary to qualify the church as running properly or improperly? Scripture is silent on this point. If this were true, you might never know until someone comes along who has the gift of discernment to point this out, one way or the other. This may be ten years later. Does this mean that the church was defective for those ten years?

Who is there who can possibly and adequately decide that a local body is insufficient in its gifts? Conversely, what would sufficient mean? Sufficient to do what? To grow a church with a larger population? Since when does the size of the church equate to spirituality? Many martyrs of the faith, who loved not their lives unto death, died in their cells in solitary confinement. These are those of whom the Lord has said this world is not worthy of them. How big was the Apostle John's church on the Isle of Patmos where he was exiled? It is very dangerous to suggest that growth in a church means God is blessing it. Narrow is the way and few it be that find it. Combine this with the great falling away in the End Times, and it sounds more like the smaller the church, the greater God is blessing it!

Question or Comment 7.

"Maybe the church growth movement is what the fully functioning church ought to be and it only stands out in contrast to the vast numbers of no growth churches who lack all the spiritual gifts?"

RESPONSE:

See commentary on Question # 6 above. It is inconceivable that true believers gathered in His Name would not possess at least some of the Spiritual Gifts of the Holy Spirit, but they may possess only what they might need for a particular mission that the Lord has for them. For example, there may be none sick among them, so the gift of healing would not be necessary...at least for a season. Or the gift may be possessed, but dormant until the need arises. Throughout the ages, there have been many churches begun and sustained without any manifestation of the gifts.

Question or Comment 8.

"I heard once that a survey of pastors revealed that only 8 per cent of them felt that evangelism was one of their gifts or their gift. Which means, clearly, doesn't it, that someone else in the body needs to provide that gift?"

RESPONSE:

No survey was taken for at least nineteen hundred years to see who thought they had a gift of evangelism and the church grew anyway. Where in the Bible does it say a survey is necessary? Do you remember what happened to King David when he took a census? Don't you think it's presumptuous of Christians to take man-made surveys, in an attempt to determine God's will and His ways? Where is the Scriptural backing for this? Likewise Saul listened to the people instead of obeying the Lord when he was afraid of the people and offered a sacrifice anyway to the Lord when he was supposed to have destroyed all of the Amelekites and living thing belonging to them. What happened to Saul for listening to the people as the Church Growth Movement has been doing? The Lord lifted his blessing on Saul and was removed from being King of Israel. Shouldn't we be worried that the Lord will lift his blessing on the Church if it also builds the church by listening to people rather than God? (See I Samuel Chapter 25)

EVERY Christian is called to be an evangelist. THAT IS THE GREAT COMMISSION. Now I will concede that evangelism is also a special gift and calling. But even assuming such a survey is from the Lord, who then decides that 8 per cent is the wrong percentage? And how do you know that the Lord has a larger percentage in mind? How do you know that the Lord may not have only 3 per cent that should be evangelists? He may trim the percentage DOWN not up, as he did with Gideon's army.

Therefore, are we to trust the results of the survey? Does one possess the gift simply because they "feel" like they have it? How about the "fact" that they have it? You state, "Which means, clearly, doesn't it, that someone else in the body needs to provide that gift?" No, it doesn't, and how do you know or determine what is "clearly"?

Do we now need take a poll to see if this gift should be provided? What percentage of church members then determines that this gift must be provided? A majority? A simple majority? Perhaps the elders should decide, which would be a minority. Do you cast lots and pick somebody? The Disciples also did something similar by casting lots to see who should replace Judas, so that there would still be twelve Disciples. But it was Christ alone who commissioned every Disciple and Apostle. Christ commissioned Paul to be the twelfth Apostle. This can be confirmed in Revelation 21:14 "And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb." So it was Paul who complete the Twelve whom Jesus selected, not Mathias, whom the disciples selected.

Maybe someone with this gift of Evangelism is not even in your local church, but if the Lord puts it on your heart, you could pray and the Lord might send you one from afar. Someone with the Gift of Evangelism might only visit from another local church, without that particular local church he or she visited ever having its own member with such a gift. What if the person never arrives? Is the church now crippled and unable to function properly? Of course not! They could simply pray and fast, give themselves to the public reading of the Scriptures as commanded by the Apostle Peter, continue in their love for one another (by which all men will know them to be true believers) and still be perfectly within the will of God WITHOUT a person with the gift of evangelism.

Question or Comment 9.


"My first exposure to teaching on gifts came through Bill Gothard over 30 years ago. He believed that the Bible taught that a person can have at most one gift, and to think otherwise was arrogant. But he also had a whole section on how to discover ones spiritual gift."

RESPONSE:

I have attended Bill Gothard's workshops, too. I also have his "Principles of Life" Advanced Seminar Workbook. It is hard to know where to begin when speaking of his theology and teaching, except to say that a good place to start is

http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/exposes/gothard/

where you can find more extensive documentation on his teachings. Let me just say that his theology is fraught with difficulties and Biblical problems. His whole approach to discovering your gift(s) of the Holy Spirit is purely theoretical and laced with the same theories found in psychology (though he maintains that they are not) and ecumenism. Show me the Scripture(s) which says a Christian can only have one gift.

Show me the Scripture(s) that supports a person believing otherwise is arrogant. Show me the Scripture(s) which support how you discover your one spiritual gift. They certainly are not in his Institute of Basic Life Principles Book, Chapter Four. He does give Scriptures but they don't support his contention, and they couldn't because they don't exist!

Bill Gothard maintains that a Christian will have only one motivational gift, but at the same time many other gifts. But what Scripture makes such a distinction? And Paul gave a further injunction to seek the higher gifts. We should be motivated to seek many of the gifts. Doesn't that sound like plural? Which gift are you going to select that a given individual would not be motivated to get?

Bill Gothard also makes a distinction of "motivational" gifts which the Bible does NOT make. He lists seven Motivational Gifts. They are: Prophecy, Serving, Teaching, Exhortation, Giving, Organizing, and Mercy. If it is true...as Bill Gothard states...that a Christian can have only one motivational gift, then the Apostle Paul would not agree with him, as he and other Apostles ministered in ALL SEVEN of these gifts.

And what about the qualifications of an elder? The Scriptures clearly tell us that elders must be apt to serve, teach, exhort, give, organize, be merciful. Additionally, we are told that in some cases the elders would also prophesy. Yet according to Bill Gothard's unfounded Biblical theory, we now would have to consider all of the Apostles and most of the elders as being arrogant because they not only believed they had more than one motivational gift, but they most certainly obeyed the Holy Spirit's leading in the actual use of all their gifts!

If Bill Gothard is right about every Christian having at least one gift of the Holy Spirit, then there is no such thing anyway as a body of believers in which the gifts do not exist. His unbiblical reasoning for only one motivational gift is found in Romans 12:6-8. However, there is nothing in that passage to suggest only one motivational gift. Bill Gothard then defines "motivation" as "the desire and power He puts within us to accomplish His will." But this should be the definition for every Christian, irrespective of the possession of ANY gift of the Holy Spirit.

Likewise, how would Gothard's faulty definition not also apply to the other two categories of gifts which he labels as Ministry and Manifestation Gifts? (Besides this, no such definition even exists in the Bible.) He then proceeds to tell us that one of the ways we discover our motivational gift is to "identify what Christians do to irritate you." His defense of this method is invoking I John 3:16, but there is nothing in that passage even remotely connected with the gifts of the Holy Spirit. This passage is talking about all Christians and how they need to love and not harden their hearts when compassion is required. Does a Christian need a gift of the Holy Spirit to do that? Certainly one could also minister to a brother, who lacks this world's goods, with the gifts of giving and mercy. But once again, every Christian should do this anyway!

A GIFT OF THE HOLY SPIRIT IS A DISTINCT ENTITY. IT IS SOMETHING GIVEN TO A CHRISTIAN THAT THEY DID NOT POSSESS BEFORE. IT IS SOMETHING SUPERNATURAL, NOT A NATURAL TALENT OR GIFT THAT GOD SIMPLY IMPROVES AS BILL GOTHARD WOULD ARGUE WHEN HE STATES "God takes these natural abilities and turns them into the means by which He can work through us supernaturally."

Bill Gothard then contradicts himself when he says: "Every Christian must know how to exercise all of the gifts." How can any Christian do this if they are supposed to have only one gift in the first place (according to Gothard)?

Question or Comment 10.

"Whatever the process of identifying a person's spiritual gift, would you say that every Christian has a gift or gifts and that a person knowing what his or her spiritual giftedness is, would be useful?"

RESPONSE:

I would use only the process given in the Bible to identify my spiritual gift. I would not go beyond what is written. The Bible does not give us a process, so we should not be implementing one with Scripture or by any other method such as SHAPE. Whatever gifts are given by the Holy Spirit are simply known, just like when the very first gifts were given at Pentecost. ABSOLUTELY NO PROCESS WAS USED TO IDENTIFY ANY GIFTS!

So, no, any process to identify a person's spiritual gift would NOT be useful. Of course, if a gift were truly given by the Holy Spirit, it would in fact be useful, as the Scriptures say they will be useful to the Body of Christ.

Question or Comment 11.

"On your list below you represent your position as believing that a person has a single gift, am reading that right?"

RESPONSE:

I believe that every Christian has a least one spiritual gift the moment they are saved, but it might not manifest itself until they mature. For example, the Apostle Paul, who could have received some or all of the gifts when he was struck on the Road to Damascus, did not immediately manifest his gifts, but rather at the direction of the Holy Spirit, he went into the Wilderness for seven years, thus being unable to use any of the gifts in the church. Also, we have the example of the House of Cornelius manifesting gifts of the Holy Spirit immediately upon their conversion, because they were Baptized in the Holy Spirit upon conversion, so would have had a least the gift of tongues upon conversion. (See Acts Chapter 10). But the Bible does not specifically say every person has one or more gifts of the Holy Spirit immediately upon conversion. Of course they would immediately have one or more upon being Baptized in the Holy Spirit (example: tongues). However, because the Lord puts such emphasis on their importance, they would soon be manifested in any church at some point.

Question or Comment 12.

"On the list you seem to be arguing that very little detail was given about spiritual gifts in the New Testament, which is, I think, true. However, would you agree with the thought that the fact that anything was said about them at all is because God apparently thought there was some need to have them identified and discussed."

RESPONSE:

Yes, I agree. We are to identify those individuals who have the gifts in order to see who God has already approved. The church is to confirm what God has already done. There certainly would also be discussion in seeing who has gifts which might qualify them to be an elder, as well as discussion to ensure all things are done decently and in order. However, what is said about them (the gifts) pertains to who ALREADY has them and how to administer their gift. This is a far, far cry from discussing how to "get a gift" or "how to discover a gift," using a man-made and/or pagan based methodology, one's life experiences or repressed memories, and at the very worse divination* (see definition and Scriptural reference below) or hypnotism, so on and so forth. It is impossible to identify what God has not already given! For any church or individual believer to attempt to do so, is an attempt to read God's mind; thus leaving the church (or Christian) to wander in a futile maze of frustration and guess-work, no matter how urgently a person or a church thinks they must have a particular gift of the Holy Spirit.

Question or Comment 13.

"Doesn't the fact that the very raising of the some issues in the Bible suggest that there were questions about the gifts and the proper use of gifts in those early fellowships?"

RESPONSE:

ABSOLUTELY, but the questions were over abuse of only certain gifts and over administrating the gifts (why deacons were created, for example). We can not and dare not read more into the Scriptures than is given to us.

Question or Comment 14.

"While you state that there isn't any scripture which instructs on how to find our spiritual gift, are there any scriptures which say that it is not necessary to be instructed on how to identify and find your spiritual gift (if so, what was Paul doing when he wrote about it?)."

RESPONSE:

Yes, Paul did write about the spiritual gifts, but show me one Scripture wherein he gives us a "process" to use by which we can identify our gift(s)?


Question or Comment 15.

Isn't there only ONE Spiritual Gift of the Holy Spirit per Christian?

RESPONSE:

No, there is not one Scripture to support only one gift per Christian, though many Christians may have only one. There are, however, many passages describing the implementation of those gifts...from Pentecost, to miracles, to Paul's passages on Church Government. I think it is safe to say that signs and wonders follow them that believe by simply doing the work of the ministry. But we don't conjure up or guess at our gifts by using some sort of testing apparatus.

Question or Comment 16.

"What was Paul's one spiritual gift? Leadership, teaching, evangelism, discernment, faith, apostle, healing? Didn't he do all of those?"

RESPONSE:

YES, YES, YES, AND AGAIN I SAY YES, PAUL DID DO ALL OF THESE!!

Question or Comment 17.

"Don't you feel the Bible says very little about the day to day life of individual Christians who were members of churches?"

RESPONSE:

Yes, but the gifts of the Holy Spirit are supernatural and self-contained entities. Day-to-day New Testament life didn't contain anything we need to know today, such as Paul's laundry list. However, to exercise gifts of the Holy Spirit that you don't have...or simply just "feel" you have or wish you had...has led multitudes into error, false teaching, and ultimately a great falling away. But getting Paul's laundry list wrong and publishing it is of little consequence to the Church.

Question or Comment 18.

"Doesn't the Bible only focus on a few of the leaders of the early church, certainly not all of them? Does the Bible exhaust all the problems or questions that must have existed?"

RESPONSE:

That is the Roman Catholic argument and the argument to integrate Psychology into the Church. But what does the Bible really say? God's Word speaks for itself (ip sa loquitor) because it says it contains everything we need for the perfecting of the saints, with regard to all questions on faith and morals. Consequently, if it is not in the Bible, we don't need to know the answer. The Bible doesn't record all of the problems or questions that would come up long after the Holy Canon was written, but it does provide the blueprint and church government for how to resolve disputes.

"All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works." II Timothy 3:16-17

Once again I must ask, what is lacking in "perfect?" What is lacking in being "thoroughly furnished?" And what needful question is not answered or problem not solved in "all good works?" You have to ask yourself how Paul and the early Church managed to achieve this with only the Scriptures, while we in the 21st Century must find a new method because "the times they are a changin..."

AND

"According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that [pertain] unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:" II Peter 1:3

Isn't all things all things? Of course, the Bible doesn't tell us how to build a nuclear plant, but what we are talking about is all things unto godliness and the perfecting of the saints.

Question or Comment 19.

"Don't you think that God didn't intend the Bible to be that specific, but instead intended to allow those in the body to use their gifts to deal with situations as life changed?"

RESPONSE:

Nothing has changed which requires any different response than what Scripture has already given us. And the gifts of the Holy Spirit were not given to provide an alternative answer, but affirm what the Scripture already has told us to do in order to obey Him.

Question or Comment 20.

"Do you feel that the gifts required in the early church in what was a relatively simple society with few issues and few complexities compared to life today, are expressed in the same way then, as they are today?"

RESPONSE:

Yes, I do believe the gifts as expressed in the early church are the same today, because Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever. What issue or complexity that exists today would entitle us to provide a different or a better answer than what the Scriptures already give us? And who would be the one able to give us the answer which is absolutely true, and how would we know the answer to be true? Apart from God's Holy Writ...neither adding to it nor taking away from it...the church (and every individual Christian) can not judge the truthfulness and rightness of any answers provided by any person, regardless of whether the person who is providing the answers is saved or unsaved.

Why are we concerned about new questions and problems that might arise in the 21st Century when the Gospels and the Apostles Paul, John, Peter, and Jude devote a large percentage of the Scripture to the SAME problems the early Church had. In fact, they warn that the questions and problems of the Last Days would be the same ones the early Church had. Instead of addressing a question or problem the Scripture does not pose, why not first concentrate on the problems the Scriptures do present. Example: false teaching, identifying and marking false teachers such who would import Psychology and Personality Theory into the Church and into the Gifts of the Holy Spirit. It is not knowledge of complexity in society new to the Church in the 21st Century which causes men to perish, but rather the lack knowledge of the Scriptures ALREADY given which cause men to perish! Instead of tolerating new teaching in the Church, the Church needs to expose, warn, and be intolerant of false teaching.

21. Argument: Have you ever met Bill Hybels; do you know him personally?

RESPONSE:

Hybels (and his wife), in their own books, in their own words, and by their actions, reveal the sorry condition of their souls and their unbiblical beliefs. Their books were endorsed by those involved in New Age beliefs, psychology and psychiatry. They have incorporated ungodly beliefs in their teachings and books; e.g., 12 Step groups of all kinds and supporting AA, etc.

"For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." (Matt. 12:37, NASB)

Are you suggesting that my not having been to Hybel's church or nowing him personally does not give me (or anyone) the right to disqualify him as a teacher? Using this logic, wouldn't Hybels not knowing me or the people of our church and not visiting our church implythat our church is ruled out as a true church? I hope this is not what you are suggesting. I haven't met a drug cartel king, or been in his home or center of operations either. I haven't met Usama Bin Laden either, nor have
I been to his Al Quada cell or lair. Would you need to attend a Mormon
Church or personally know the Elder(s) before you publically exposed their teaching and warned any of the brethren? Does this mean I should still try cocaine or Islam before I have any right to say anything to warn anyone? Do we need to drink hemlock to know it will kills us? Or should we "experiment," just in case all the doctors have been wrong all these
years??? I have never wallowed in the poison oak bushes or eaten its berries to be qualified to make any statement about staying away from the poison oak?

Therefore, we don't need to meet him and know him personally, in order to know that we should avoid him at any and all costs.

"Now I urge you, brethren, keep your eye on those who cause dissension and hindrances contrary to the teaching which you learned, and turn away from them.

"For such men are slaves, not of our Lord Christ but of their own appetites; and by their smooth and flattering speech they deceive the hearts of the unsuspecting."

(Ro. 16:17-18, NASB)

"I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel; which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ.

But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to that which we have preached to you, he is to be accursed!

As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you have received, he is to be accursed!"

(Gal. 1:6-9, NASB. Note: The Holy Spirit inspired Paul to twice repeat any man, preaching a contrary gospel, is to be accursed! What more do we require in the way of instruction?)

22. Argument: Have you ever been to Willow Creek?

RESPONSE:

We don't need to attend a seance to know it is not of God, do we? Because the foundation that has been set down by Hybels is unbiblical (see above), we do not need to attend Willow Creek to know that it is not of God!

23. Argument: There are over a thousand people who attend Willow Creek each week; there are thousands upon thousands of WCA churches. Therefore, the numbers alone should tell you that Willow Creek must be doing something right. Look how God is blessing this ministry with growth!

RESPONSE:

Just because there are over a thousand in attendance there in each week , just because there are thousands of WCA churches, does not mean this is a work of our Lord! To use this argument to support Hybels and Willowcreekism, would mean that the Muslim faith must also be "of God," as there are millions of adherents around the world, and the Muslim faith is growing by leaps and bounds in numbers. In fact, the Muslim religion is the largest and fastest growing in the world!

24. Argument: Bill Hybels is a wonderful preacher/teacher. People are drawn to the truths he shares.

RESPONSE:

Charisma of a founder means nothing! To fall back upon that argument; i.e., what a "great leader" Hybels has become, must mean we need to change our thinking re: David Koresh and Jim Jones. Afterall, they too were quite charismatic and able to draw crowds to them and their false teachings, were they not?

"There is a way which seems right to a man, but its end is the way of death." (Prov. 14:12; 16:25, NASB)

The issue is not the charismatic personality of an individual, but rather that the individual is preaching, teaching, and walking in obedience to the Word of God, as it is written.

We have the infallible, inherent Word of God as our plumbline, blueprint, guideline, for faith and practice, and we dare not veer away from God's Word.

All of 2 Timothy 3 and 4.

CONCLUSION:

Jesus Christ in the Gospels, and the Apostles Paul, John, Peter, and Jude, warned of deception in the Last Days because of the very philosophy that NEW or secret information was needed which was different from or in addition to the Scriptures, Prophesy, and instructions already given to the saints. So with this in mind, I remind you of the following Scripture:

"Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort [you] that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints." Jude 1:3 This faith is for the Christians of ALL nations, all people, all generations, for all time.

"In all thy ways acknowledge him and He will direct thy paths." Proverbs 3:6 (not Carl Jung)

And from Psalm 23, ..."He restoreth my soul" (not Carl Jung)

"For the word of God [is] quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and [is] a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart." Hebrews 4:12 (three times again I say not Carl Jung)

****

*Regarding Divination, here is what the Bible says.

"There shall not be found among you [any one] that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, [or] that useth divination, [or] an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch, Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer. For all that do these things [are] an abomination unto the LORD: and because of these abominations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee." Deuteronomy 18:10-12

Here is the Merriam-Webster Dictionary Definition of Divination:

1 : the art or practice that seeks to foresee or foretell future events or discover hidden knowledge usually by the interpretation of omens or by the aid of supernatural powers.